PM Modi and France President Emmanuel Macron’s strong relationship in the fragmented international landscape, India’s ambition to shape the global order under Modi’s leadership, along with Europe’s response to Trump’s presidency, came up in a discussion with Spain’s former foreign affairs minister,Arancha González, who is presently dean of the Paris School of International Affairs at Sciences Po, in an exclusive interaction with TOI ’s Manash Gohain. Excerpts:
Though subscribing to different political views, Modi and Macron have developed a relationship which seems to be driver of strong cooperation?
They are from very different schools of thought and different generations. But the commonality is they understand that in today’s global landscape that is fragmented, power and rivalry driven, it matters that you build partnerships. When India took leadership for Solar Alliance, it did that with France. France is the architect of Paris Climate Accord. But Macron knows that it is not enough that Europe decarbonises its economy, it needs to make sure that China, US and India are committed to this fight. India is in a region that is vibrant from an economic point of view. There is a sentiment in France, that there is a way to make this economic relation a win-win relation.
What do you think about India’s role in geopolitics?
India has been very clear that it wants to have a say in the international order and wants it to reflect a little bit more of India’s interests. India, since its independence, was important in non-aligned movement. However, it is now advancing some form of a new model because it desires to chart its own course and work with different worldviews. India understands that some are friendly and some are less friendly partners, but that in today’s world, you have to have an influence. India is polygamous, it wants to have relations with its neighbour to the east, China, to the north, Russia, with its neighbours to the West, whether it’s the Middle East, or European Union or US. It wants to position itself a s a bridge between the North and the South. We must recognise India’s international ambitions.
Has this gained momentum since Modi took charge in 2014?
What has happened is that international affairs have changed, become more hostile. Thus, there is a premium for those that can navigate troubled waters. This is what Modi is doing, navigating troubled waters with this traditional stance of India to be an actor in international affairs. I worked in WTO. And I could see the role India always wanted to play in negotiations. If I look at the numbers 30 years ago, India had a small percentage in international trade. But it had a political ambition to have a say in negotiations. Today, India has a bigger share of international trade, no longer the 2%-3% that used to be in the past.
What is your opinion on the challenges posed by Donald Trump to NATO?
Having lived through a Trump presidency, we know the modus operandi. For Eu rope, the lesson we need to draw is to take the future in our hands, as opposed to putting our future in hands of American voter. We need to invest seriously in three areas — security and defence by taking more ownership and building a stronger European pillar in NATO; boosting competitiveness of European economy, tapping more into Europe single markets; and caring about our democracy.
Last year, you met Rahul Gandhi, in Paris…
We invited him to speak at the university during his visit to Paris. In a dialogue with students, he explained the (Bharat Jodo) Yatra and what he wanted to achieve through that. He’s fighting for his political space. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. What I could see is his commitment to fighting for his agenda, for the Congress agenda. This 2024 is going to be a big, big, big election. I will not second guess what the Indian electorate would want to do.
Though subscribing to different political views, Modi and Macron have developed a relationship which seems to be driver of strong cooperation?
They are from very different schools of thought and different generations. But the commonality is they understand that in today’s global landscape that is fragmented, power and rivalry driven, it matters that you build partnerships. When India took leadership for Solar Alliance, it did that with France. France is the architect of Paris Climate Accord. But Macron knows that it is not enough that Europe decarbonises its economy, it needs to make sure that China, US and India are committed to this fight. India is in a region that is vibrant from an economic point of view. There is a sentiment in France, that there is a way to make this economic relation a win-win relation.
What do you think about India’s role in geopolitics?
India has been very clear that it wants to have a say in the international order and wants it to reflect a little bit more of India’s interests. India, since its independence, was important in non-aligned movement. However, it is now advancing some form of a new model because it desires to chart its own course and work with different worldviews. India understands that some are friendly and some are less friendly partners, but that in today’s world, you have to have an influence. India is polygamous, it wants to have relations with its neighbour to the east, China, to the north, Russia, with its neighbours to the West, whether it’s the Middle East, or European Union or US. It wants to position itself a s a bridge between the North and the South. We must recognise India’s international ambitions.
Has this gained momentum since Modi took charge in 2014?
What has happened is that international affairs have changed, become more hostile. Thus, there is a premium for those that can navigate troubled waters. This is what Modi is doing, navigating troubled waters with this traditional stance of India to be an actor in international affairs. I worked in WTO. And I could see the role India always wanted to play in negotiations. If I look at the numbers 30 years ago, India had a small percentage in international trade. But it had a political ambition to have a say in negotiations. Today, India has a bigger share of international trade, no longer the 2%-3% that used to be in the past.
What is your opinion on the challenges posed by Donald Trump to NATO?
Having lived through a Trump presidency, we know the modus operandi. For Eu rope, the lesson we need to draw is to take the future in our hands, as opposed to putting our future in hands of American voter. We need to invest seriously in three areas — security and defence by taking more ownership and building a stronger European pillar in NATO; boosting competitiveness of European economy, tapping more into Europe single markets; and caring about our democracy.
Last year, you met Rahul Gandhi, in Paris…
We invited him to speak at the university during his visit to Paris. In a dialogue with students, he explained the (Bharat Jodo) Yatra and what he wanted to achieve through that. He’s fighting for his political space. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. What I could see is his commitment to fighting for his agenda, for the Congress agenda. This 2024 is going to be a big, big, big election. I will not second guess what the Indian electorate would want to do.